A conversation with celebrated author George Saunders about his new novel, Vigil, and what fiction can teach us about empathy, self-awareness, and mortality.

George Saunders is the bestselling, award-winning author of Lincoln in the Bardo, Tenth of December, and many other books. His new novel, Vigil, tells the story of a woman who died in 1976 and has spent the decades since comforting the dying—until she encounters a former oil executive responsible for early climate change denial.

In this conversation, Dan and George talk about:

Why George keeps writing about ghosts and the afterlife (hint: it's not just about mortality dread)
The lavish empathy at the heart of Vigil—and whether we should extend that empathy even to people doing civilizational damage
What George calls "warm metacognition"—the practice of dropping back out of your thought loops to examine what kind of goggles you're wearing
How fiction can turn your mind into a "reconsideration machine" (and why that matters in real life)
The difference between kindness and niceness
George's relationship with death anxiety, which he's had since childhood and which has only intensified with age
What George has learned about listening from teaching and hosting his Substack, Story Club
Why the older he gets, the more important it is to stretch himself creatively
His advice for dealing with stuckness (in writing and in life): curiosity over self-accusation

George's new novel Vigil is out January 27th from Random House. Check out his Substack, Story Club, where he discusses classic short stories with an incredibly thoughtful community.

Related Episodes:

George Saunders on "Holy Befuddlement" and How to Be Less of a "Turd"

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George Saunders On: Getting Un-Stuck, Calming the Inner Critic, and Building Empathy Without Becoming a Chump

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