In this episode of PEM Currents: The Pediatric Emergency Medicine Podcast, Brad Sobolewski discusses advanced imaging in pediatric emergency care with Dr. Jennifer Marin (jennifer.marin@chp.edu) from UPMC Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh. They explore the evidence behind ultrasound, CT, and MRI, strategies to reduce low-value imaging, and the role of shared decision-making in selecting the appropriate diagnostic test.

Learning Objectives

Demonstrate the ability to use shared decision-making strategies when discussing imaging options with families of pediatric patients presenting to the Emergency Department. (Bloom’s: Apply; Kirkpatrick Level 2 – Learning)
Evaluate the risks and benefits of ultrasound, CT, and MRI for common pediatric emergencies and identify appropriate imaging modalities based on clinical guidelines discussed in the podcast. (Bloom’s: Analyze; Kirkpatrick Level 3 – Behavior):
Assess the impact of implementing strategies for reducing low-value imaging in the pediatric emergency department on patient care outcomes, including diagnostic accuracy, radiation exposure, and healthcare costs. (Bloom’s: Evaluate; Kirkpatrick Level 4 – Results)

Connect with Brad Sobolewski

PEMBlog: PEMBlog.com
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Mastodon: @bradsobo@med-mastodon.com

References

Marin JR, Lyons TW, Claudius I, et al; American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Pediatric Emergency Medicine, Section on Radiology; American College of Emergency Physicians Pediatric Emergency Medicine Committee; American College of Radiology. Optimizing Advanced Imaging of the Pediatric Patient in the Emergency Department: Policy Statement. Pediatrics. 2024;154(1):e2024066854. doi:10.1542/peds.2024-066854. PubMed
Marin JR, Lyons TW, Claudius I, et al; American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Pediatric Emergency Medicine, Section on Radiology; American College of Emergency Physicians Pediatric Emergency Medicine Committee; American College of Radiology. Optimizing Advanced Imaging of the Pediatric Patient in the Emergency Department: Technical Report. Pediatrics. 2024;154(1):e2024066855. doi:10.1542/peds.2024-066855. PubMed

Transcript

Note: This transcript was partially completed with the use of the Descript AI and the Chat GPT 4o AI

Welcome to PEM Currents: The Pediatric Emergency Medicine Podcast. As always, I’m your host, Brad Sobolewski, and in today’s episode, we are diving into a critical topic that every clinician in the emergency department encounters: we are talking about advanced imaging. Wait, so is this like an upper-level college course?

No. Advanced imaging, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Emergency Physicians, and the American College of Radiology, refers to diagnostic modalities like ultrasound, computed tomography or CT, and magnetic resonance imaging or MRI that provide detailed visualization of the internal structures of our patients to aid in the evaluation and management of the kids that we see in the ED.

So it’s the name for all of the cool imaging studies that we order on all of our patients, and they are essential for doing our daily jobs and identifying serious conditions like traumatic brain injuries, appendicitis, and stroke. There’s also risks. We’re talking about radiation exposure, having to sedate patients, false positive results, incidental findings that we have to deal with, and the obvious increase in healthcare costs, and there certainly is a rise in CT and MRI use.

And how do we actually strike the right balance between obtaining essential diagnostic information and avoiding unnecessary imaging? So here to help us navigate these complex decisions is Dr. Jennifer Marin. She’s an emergency department director of imaging at UPMC, Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh, my hometown, a Yinzer, and a leading voice in pediatric emergency imaging.

She’s been at the forefront of research into imaging optimization. Focusing a lot on when to image, when not to image, and how to communicate imaging decisions effectively with families. In this episode, which we recorded as a discussion on May 12th, 2025, we will explore the latest evidence and guidelines, discuss practical strategies for reducing low-value imaging, and highlight how shared decision-making can help ensure that every scan is the right scan.

Jen, let’s start broadly. What are the most common injuries or conditions in children that require advanced imaging in the ED? And what are some of the trends that you’re seeing regarding how often we’re performing these studies? You know, reordering more imaging just because it’s more readily available because our patients and families expect it.

Or is there something else going on here? Thanks, Brad, and thanks so much for having me. It’s an honor to be on your podcast. To answer your first question, I think really the most common things that we see patients being imaged for would be suspected appendicitis. The kid who comes in with belly pain, you don’t wanna miss an appendicitis.

So we’re doing a lot of abdominal ultrasounds in those cases. Head trauma, um, of course people don’t wanna miss a bleed. So we do imaging for closed head injury. Those patients with minor head trauma, cervical spine trauma, abdominal trauma. And then I would say also children who come in with headaches. Uh, and those who also have seizures, those would be probably the most common reasons why we image kids.

So these studies are all readily available. We can get them sort of whenever we want. Really. What are some of the trends that we’re seeing in terms of ordering practices? Yeah, there’s definitely been studies that have shown that over time we are using more advanced imaging modalities. And I, I like to say to the residents and trainees, if you build it, they will come. And so as we now have more availability of these tests, when I started training, we did not have 24 hour ultrasound. We certainly didn’t have MRI available in the ED. But now that we have 24 hour ultrasound, it’s much easier to just get the ultrasound, or at least that’s the perception, right?

So it’s relatively cheap when you talk about ultrasound compared to other advanced imaging modalities, it isn’t usually painful. It’s no radiation and it’s fairly quick. So I think that when we, our threshold to order tests like this have gone way down simply because of the availability. Do you feel like sometimes we just assume that a patient or family wants an imaging test in order to figure out what’s going on?

Sometimes we do think that. I think we think that probably more than they actually do. And I’ve actually started, instead of assuming that a family is expecting imaging, I’ve started asking, what are you worried about? And what do you think should be done? And a lot of times I’m very surprised when I explain to the families why imaging isn’t necessary, if in fact they are expecting it. Most of the time it’s very well received.

Right. And I feel like we used to see a kid who would come in with a day and a half, two days of pain, right? So it was a little bit easier. Um, but now they’ll come in with a few hours of pain. And the reality is that if you get an ultrasound in early appendicitis, you’re probably not even gonna see the appendix. And so the test really isn’t gonna be that useful. And I go into that a little bit with families and I think it really resonates with them and has them understanding why we’re not doing the ultrasound.

That’s a wonderful point. And I don’t think there’s any such thing as a perfect test. There’s almost nothing that’s a binary yes-no. There’s false positives and false negatives for everything. And if you are born with your appendix behind your cecum, no ultrasonographer in the universe is going to be able to get it to come out to take a picture. Do you think that medical-legal concerns also play a role?

Is it different in taking care of children versus adults? I think medical-legal implications do play a role, and there’s been studies on that, but it’s mostly in the general EM literature, not as much in pediatrics. But I think that it’s something that is probably there that we think about. Nobody wants to miss an appendicitis. Nobody wants to miss a head bleed, right? We don’t wanna miss anything. And I think that when we’re faced with a child who has one of these diagnoses, that’s where we need to weigh the risks and benefits. And in some cases have a conversation with the family because sometimes it’s clear-cut that they need imaging. Other times it’s clear that they don’t need imaging, but there’s a lot of gray.

And you mentioned in your intro, shared decision-making, and I think that shared decision-making plays a really important role with imaging in a lot of these scenarios.

So I’m gonna shift gears just a tiny bit. You talked a few moments ago about some of the more common conditions in which we get imaging. I’m gonna ask specifically about CT scans and radiation. And it’s a topic that comes up again and again and we’re learning more and more over time about the risks of radiation, particularly in growing children where we really don’t understand the long-term risks. Can you talk about safer alternatives? How we should approach the risk of CT scan with families and some of the decisions around that?

Absolutely. So there is a risk of radiation. We know this. What we don’t know is what exactly is that risk. And a lot of the studies that have been done were done on patients who received imaging on much older equipment. And the equipment that we use now is much more sophisticated, much more high-tech, and does have the ability to deliver much lower radiation doses. So the explanation that I give to families, especially when I’m in a shared decision-making situation or in a scenario where I’m recommending a CT and the family is a bit hesitant, you know, I’ll say the benefits of this scan very likely outweigh any of the risks.

We don’t know what that risk is. We know that any radiation can be potentially harmful, but when you’re getting imaged at a children’s hospital, for example, and this is a kid who’s not getting imaged every month or every year like some of our adult patients are, then the risks really are generally outweighed by the benefits when you have a high pretest probability of disease.

CT does get the lion’s share of concerns about risk and advanced imaging. But there’s two other modalities that we’re talking about today. Really, on one end we’ve got ultrasound, which there’s no ionizing radiation whatsoever. It’s readily available and it’s first line for things like appendicitis, kidney stones, and soft tissue infections. And then at the other end we have MRI, and it’s not just set it and forget it. Now we have rapid protocols and other things. Can you talk specifically about some of these Rapid MRI protocols and how they may supplant CT scans?

Yes, so Rapid MRI protocols have really exploded, I would say in the last decade. We actually have four different rapid protocols depending on the scenario, depending on the imaging question, and it’s a wonderful test. I think that there are limitations to it, right? So one is going to be the speed with which you can get it, and our MRI scanners, you know, we don’t have an infinite number, and so we are competing with other patients around the hospital who need MRIs and sometimes kids have to wait two, three plus hours to get it.

The other thing though that’s important is a lot of times, you know, the CT gives us good information and it’s fast, but it may not be the best test. And so MRI is going to give us more information depending on the scenario. So I’m thinking about maybe a seizure patient, where an MRI might be a better test than a CT. And so getting the CT is to some extent, only delaying the inevitable because the patient’s ultimately going to need the MRI.

So what I initially learned about MRI, it was like this two hour long test. You had to lay in this big machine. It made a ton of noise. You had to put headphones on. When you talk about rapid MRI, like how fast can these patients be in and out of the scanner?

So these tests are very fast. They’re not as fast as CT scans. You can get a head CT probably in under two minutes, but you can get a rapid MRI in five to seven minutes. In some cases, if you’re doing a shunt protocol, for example, some of them take a little bit longer, 10 minutes, 12 minutes. But still, to your point, Brad, it’s not this hour long scan that we’re used to seeing and most patients tolerate it well.

But – and I’ll go back to your earlier question – one of the limitations of MRI is you can get a scan down to three minutes, but if you’re a 19-month-old who doesn’t want to lay still, it’s not going to happen. So that risk of sedation really becomes something to consider when we’re getting a rapid MRI in a particular age group.

Locally, we will not do MRIs on ED patients below six years of age.

When I started residency way back in the day, I said to one of my mentors, ‘What am I gonna do about two-year-olds?’ And I was told, ‘Nothing.’ And that has held true all throughout my career.

Yes, and so thinking about these imaging modalities, I keep coming back to the fact that most of the time when we’re ordering one, it’s because we’re thinking about what’s next from a management standpoint for the patient. That often involves our subspecialty colleagues, whether that’s our surgeons, our subspecialist surgeons, or other pediatric subspecialties. How are we collaborating with these pediatric specialists to ensure that we’re triaging and effectively making decisions and integrating these decisions into the overall treatment plan for the children we’re caring for in the emergency department?

Subspecialists are key, right? And I think that getting multidisciplinary collaboration when we are figuring out what is the best imaging strategy for X is critical. We have clinical effectiveness guidelines, as I’m sure many know, and many pediatric emergency departments have these. These are multidisciplinary guidelines that have been put together that really take into account all the relevant stakeholders and what’s the best imaging test to get the answer that we’re interested in.

We’ve collaborated with general surgery, radiology, and all different specialties depending on the scenario, so that we’re imaging in the right way and not having to redo the study. We have different protocols like for kidney stones, where we do a very low dose CT, and we have parameters around which we decide whether to do that CT in lieu of ultrasound for certain patients.

None of that would be possible without earlier collaboration with all the relevant stakeholders first.

You think about all the different points in your system where the decision could go wrong. You just mentioned a CT protocol for stones. You could order another version of a, you know, abdominal CT and get a study that also looked at the kidneys but wasn’t specific for it. And they’re all on that giant menu. So you have to think from top to bottom in your system and get everybody involved and on board. And I would agree with you completely that I found that’s the only way to drive decisions toward the preferred imaging modality. Everybody that’s a stakeholder has to agree. And you can’t just snap your fingers and make that happen.

And we are working in children’s hospitals with tons of resources, world experts, and the availability of tests. But the majority of our patients do not initially seek care in our facilities. We know that nine out of ten children that go to the ER do not go to children’s hospital ERs. And I think some of the concern about low-value imaging or imaging with high risks has to be directed at our children who may receive imaging outside of children’s hospitals.

So what can pediatric emergency medicine physicians specifically do to reduce the use of low-value imaging being performed at non-children’s hospitals?

You’re absolutely right, Brad. And I always say that I do not envy my emergency medicine colleagues, particularly those practicing in community settings. We really do have so many resources at our disposal, and it is very hard for them to know everything about kids and adults while practicing in locations where they don’t have these consultants available 24/7.

I think it’s very important, almost an obligation, for us to provide outreach and education to our community ED colleagues so that they are given the tools needed to provide the right imaging to the right patient at the right time.

So I’ll give you a couple of examples. At UPMC, we have many hospitals as part of our system, but only one pediatric children’s hospital. And so we routinely do outreach with our community providers. There’s an education series, a lecture series, and I had the opportunity to give a talk on this very topic to those providers. It was all these medical directors at other hospitals who then had the opportunity to cascade down the message about low-value imaging, when to image, when not to image. We provided resources, which I’ll talk about in a little bit, and, you know, hopefully that will lead to less low-value imaging in the community setting.

Another recommendation that I have is regarding transport calls. We all take transport calls when we’re practicing at the ‘mothership.’ Patients are getting transferred, and I think having a conversation with the doc at the point of care, even if imaging has already been done — and maybe it was low-value or could have been avoided — I think it’s important to talk to the provider and say, ‘Hey, you know what? Just so you know, next time you have a kid like this, don’t feel like you have to image them. We are happy to take this kid without imaging.’

It’s going to save time, it’s going to save us having to upload the disc that may or may not be corrupted. It’s going to save the patient, potentially, another scan because they were moving all over the table because the techs at the referring hospital aren’t used to trying to manage a wriggling infant.

I almost empower them to not necessarily do imaging because I think that there is this common misconception in the community setting that you can’t transfer a patient unless you know what the diagnosis is or unless you have imaging available. And that’s really not the case at all.

Talking about some of the resources in the guidelines that we published, the policy statement and technical report that we published in Pediatrics and in some other journals, statements on advanced imaging in children who present to the emergency department. It was authored by the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Emergency Physicians, and the American College of Radiology. Those statements were published, and one of the documents that I think is very useful is the supplement to the technical report, which includes several publicly available clinical effectiveness guidelines from various children’s hospitals all over the country.

These can be used at the point of care to help with decision-making so that we’re providing high-value care and performing high-value imaging.

Before we bring this episode to a close, there’s one other subject I wanted to talk a little bit more about, and it’s incidental findings. You know, it’s when we get a study right, and we discover something that we weren’t expecting to see. I think, colloquially, it’s gotten the name ‘Incidentaloma.’ How do you suggest we approach when we discover something that we weren’t expecting to see? What does that mean for patients and families? And is there a cascade of decisions that happen because of that that could have been avoided?

Absolutely. Yeah. I don’t think we talk about these enough because we don’t have to deal with them in the ED. So an incidental finding is something that a radiologist sees on the imaging study that means nothing. It doesn’t cause the patient any harm, and it’s certainly not the reason for their symptoms. But when you tell someone that they have a nodule, let’s say, on their lung from a CT PE study, that then sparks what we call ‘care cascades.’

And they have to follow up on that. It’s an extra visit, time off work, time out of school, an extra cost, anxiety-provoking. And maybe they need to follow it up every three months. It’s a real burden on families and on the healthcare system more broadly and probably something that doesn’t get enough attention in emergency medicine.

So, I would encourage folks when they’re ordering tests, particularly if the pretest probability is very low, to think about the risks, including incidental findings and how they’re really not insignificant.

Before we end our conversation, what final words of advice do you have for someone who’s going to have a shift soon after they listen to this episode? What’s one thing that they can take to the bedside in an upcoming discussion with a patient and their family?

Understanding that imaging isn’t always necessary to make a diagnosis, and that’s something that I think today’s trainees need to hear, and also some of the families need to hear. There’s so much information available online, as you know, and Facebook groups and resources and ‘My friend, my grandmother,’ etc., and it can be overwhelming.

Taking the time to explain to families, especially those who are expecting imaging or have questions about imaging, why we aren’t doing imaging and the risks associated with it, which are very real — I think that that carries a lot of weight.

What about other healthcare teams that interface with our patients when they may be requesting tests that we’re concerned pose additional risks or costs to patients? How do we have a collaborative discussion with them when there’s a difference of opinion about what best to do for a patient?

Yes. I think you answered it, actually, Brad — having a collaborative discussion. A lot of times when we consult a service, it’s a resident who might be at another hospital. They have to come to our hospital. They’re just reflexively asking for imaging. I say to the resident, ‘I’m going to call that resident back.’ And I’ll say, ‘You know what? I would really love for you to just see the patient before we talk about getting a CT because I don’t think the kid needs a CT.’

Most of the time, that works really well. Sometimes they’ll say, ‘Well, here’s why I want the CT,’ and I’ll say, ‘Oh, that’s really helpful. We’ll go ahead and get it.’ So I think having a conversation and questioning in a very respectful way can be eye-opening on both sides.

And that is a conversation that is best had by voice or face-to-face. It can be uncomfortable to feel like you’re going to have a disagreement with somebody. But ultimately, everybody’s goal is the same — just to do what’s right for the kid and their family.

And the other people that are really smart and amazing and wonderful are radiologists. We should always be willing to call them on the phone. They’re not just the test referral center. You don’t just put in the test and get it. Sometimes we should be calling them and saying, ‘Here’s the problem I have at hand. What’s the best way that we can safely image this child?’

Jen, thank you so much. Tons of fascinating information. As I mentioned before, I will put links to all of these excellent resources in the show notes. I hope that in listening today, you will come up with some new ways to approach these issues with patients and families, as well as the folks we collaborate with. And don’t be afraid to have those discussions with folks calling in from other institutions. We all have the same goal. And ultimately, it’s on us working in pediatric emergency departments to disseminate that best information.

Jen, thank you very much.

Brad, thank you so much. It was such an honor. I had a really nice time. Thank you.

Alright, that’s all for this episode. I hope you now understand what the term ‘advanced imaging’ encompasses — ultrasound, CT, MRI — the radiologic studies that we use to make diagnoses every day in the emergency department on children. Sometimes these tests are necessary; sometimes they’re not. We have to collaborate with patients, families, our radiology colleagues, the other specialists we collaborate with, and providers working at community EDs to decide whether to image and, if we do, to get the right test that will get us the most accurate results with the least risk.

So if you liked this episode, share it with a colleague, leave a review on your favorite podcast site, or send me a comment via email, on the blog, or via social media.

For PEM Currents: The Pediatric Emergency Medicine Podcast, I’m Brad Sobolewski. See you next time.

Advanced Imaging of Children in the ED: Ultrasound, CT, and MRI

PEM Currents: The Pediatric Emergency Medicine Podcast

Advanced Imaging of Children in the ED: Ultrasound, CT, and MRI