We've covered a number of episodes in the past that feed into this one, including Raising Emotionally Healthy Boys with Dr. Judy Chu (which focused on boys' understanding of masculinity in the preschool years), and Playing to Win with Dr. Hilary Levy Friedman (which looked at the lessons children learn from sports...which aren't really related to the sports themselves...). And of course there are the two episodes on patriarchy; the interview with Dr. Carol Gilligan, as well as my conversation with listener Brian Stout about what we learned during the interview. A few weeks ago listener Caroline and I interviewed Dr. Marnina Gonick on the topic of girls' relationships, which stemmed from the question 'why are middle/high school-aged girls so mean to each other?' but became much broader in scope as we looked at the cultural factors shaping girls' relationships. At the end of that conversation I asked Dr. Gonick if she knew anyone who was doing work similar to hers but looking at boys' relationships, and she did! In today's conversation Caroline returns to co-interview Dr. Michael Kehler, who is Research Professor in Masculinities Studies at the Weklund School of Education at the University of Calgary. We discuss how masculinity isn't something that boys are; it's something they do, how the traditional interpretation of masculinity hurts our boys and girls, and what parents can do to support boys in engaging in alternative masculinities that allow them to feel more whole as people. Dr. Michael Kehler's book

Boys’ Bodies: Speaking the Unspoken - Affiliate link

Jump to highlights (03:31) What does it mean to be a boy (05:17) There is a type of masculinity that is perceived to be the most masculine (06:21) The problem with the phrase “Boys will be boys” (08:24) Understanding Masculine and Feminine binary (10:09) How much influence do gender stereotypes or gender norms around masculinity have on boys' relationships, particularly at school? (16:27) How mental and physical affection have shown up in boys' and men's relationships (21:37) Why do boys and men feel pressure to conform to traditional masculine norms? (23:38) Ways that girls regulated men's roles in society (27:49) How can gender diversity be supported (30:25) Boys seem to need action-based learning, rather than docile literacy-based tasks (33:54) The importance of disrupting thinking in supporting boys in their resistance to the norms of masculinity (40:07) Do boys desire close male-to-male friendships? (42:29) Power of discomfort as a learning opportunity References: Anderson, E., Adams, A., & Rivers, I. (2012). “I kiss them because I love them”: The emergence of heterosexual men kissing in British institutes of education. Archives of Sexual Behavior 41(2), 421-430.

Anderson, E. (2008). “I used to think women were weak”: Orthodox masculinity, gender segregation, and sport. Sociological Forum 23(2), 257-280.

Burns, J., & Kehler, M. (2014). Boys, bodies, and negotiated school spaces: When boys fail the litmus test. Culture, Society & Masculinities 6(1), 3-18.

Hayward, C., & Mac an Ghaill, M. (2013). Education and masculinities: Social, cultural, and global transformations. New York: Routledge.

Kehler, M. (2010). Boys, books and homophobia: Exploring the practices and policies of masculinities in school. McGill Journal of Education 45(3), 351-370.

Kehler, M.D. (2007). Hallway fears and high school friendships: the complications of young men (re)negotiating heterosexualized identities. Discourse: Studies in the cultural politics of education 28(2), 259-277.

Kehler, M.D. & Martino, W. (2007). Questioning masculinities: Interrogating boys’ capacities for self-problematization in schools. Canadian Journal of Education 30(1), 90-112.

Kehler, M.D., Davison, K.G., & Frank, B. (2005). Contradictions and tensions in the practice of masculinites in school: interrogating embodiment and ‘Good Buddy Talk.’ Journal of Curriculum Theorizing 21(4), 59-72.

Kimmel, M. (2018). Masculinity and our common humanity: “Real” men versus “Good” men. In N. Way, A. Ali, C. Gilligan, & P. Noguera (Eds), The Crisis of Connection: Roots, Consequences, and Solutions (p.173-187). New York: New York University Press.

Kimmel, M. (2004). Masculinity as homophobia: Fear, shame, and silence in the construction of gender identity. In P.F. Murphy (Ed)., Feminism & Masculinities (p.182-199). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Mac an Ghaill, M., & Hayward, C. (2011). Schooling, masculinity and class analysis: Towards an aesthetic of subjectivities. British Journal of Sociology of Education 32(5), 729-744.

Mac an Ghaill, M. (1994). The making of men: Masculinities, sexualities, and schooling. Buckingham: Open University Press.

Martino, W., & Kehler, M. (2006). Male teachers and the “Boy Problem” An issue of recuperative masculinity politics. McGill Journal of Education 41(2), 113-131.

McCann, P.D., Minichiello, V., & Plummer, D. (2009). Is homophobia inevitable? Evidence that explores the constructed nature of homophobia, and the techniques through which men unlearn it. Journal of Sociology 45(2), 201-220.

Messerschmidt, J.W. (2010). The struggle for recognition: Embodied masculinity and the victim-violence cycle of bullying in secondary schools. In M. Kehler & M. Atkinson (Eds), Boys’ Bodies: Speaking the Unspoken (p.113-131). New York: Peter Lang.

Plummer, C. (1999). One of the boys: Masculinity, homophobia, and modern manhood. New York: Harrington Park Press.

Riechert, M.C., & Nelson, J.D. (2018). I want to learn from you: Relational strategies to engage boys in school. In N. Way, A. Ali, C. Gilligan, & P. Noguera (Eds), The Crisis of Connection: Roots, Consequences, and Solutions (p.344-360). New York: New York University Press.

Robinson, S., White, A., & Anderson, E. (2019). Privileging the bromance: A critical appraisal of romantic and bromantic relationships. Men and Masculinities 22(5), 850-871.

Rogers L.O. (2018). The “Black Box”: Identity development and the crisis of connection among Black adolescent boys. In N. Way, A. Ali, C. Gilligan, & P. Noguera (Eds), The Crisis of Connection: Roots, Consequences, and Solutions (p.129-148). New York: New York University Press.

Rotondo, E.A. (1989). Romantic friendship: Male intimacy and middle class youth in the Northern United States, 1800-1900. Journal of Social History 23(1), 1-25.

Ryan, T.A., Morrison, T.G., & O Beaglaoich, C. (2010). Adolescent males’ body image: An overview of research on the influence of mass media. In M. Kehler & M. Atkinson (Eds), Boys’ Bodies: Speaking the Unspoken (p.21-50). New York: Peter Lang.

Scholes, L. (2018). Boys, masculinities and reading: Gender identity and literacy as social practice. New York: Routledge.

Watson, A., & Kehler, M. (2012). Beyond the “Boy Problem”: Raising questions, growing concerns and literacy reconsidered. New England Reading Association Journal 48(1), 43-55.

Watson, A., Kehler, M., & Martino, W. (2010). The problem of boys’ literacy underachievement: Raising some questions. Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy 53(5), 356-361.

Way, N., & Nelson, J.D. (2018). The Listening Project: Fostering curiosity and connection in middle schools. In N. Way, A. Ali, C. Gilligan, & P. Noguera (Eds), The Crisis of Connection: Roots, Consequences, and Solutions (p.274-298). New York: New York University Press.

161: New masculinites for older boys with Dr. Michael Kehler & Caroline Brunet

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161: New masculinites for older boys with Dr. Michael Kehler & Caroline Brunet