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Mary is a political consultant and former TV and radio host. She served under Presidents Reagan, HW Bush, and W Bush. She also co-founded Threshold Editions, a conservative publishing imprint at Simon & Schuster. She’s married to Democratic consultant and Dishcast guest, James Carville, whom she wrote two books with: All’s Fair and Love & War. She also wrote Letters to My Daughters. We got to know each other decades ago, but lost touch. After her husband Carville’s pod, I asked her. She lives on a farm now — and is as fun and sharp as ever.

We had no specific topic at hand so the convo is a bit sprawling, like two old friends reconnecting in the Christmas break. Or something like that. For two clips of our convo — on finding yourself through suffering, and the last days of Lee Atwater — pop over to our YouTube page.

Other topics: growing up in south Chicago around steel mills; being the only white woman at beauty school; dropping out of college many times; worked her way through law school; the “explosion of ideas” under Reagan; converting to Catholicism; Vatican II undermining the liturgy; leaving the Dem Party over identity politics; black people against “Defund”; the Catholic view of the individual; why flaws are the most interesting parts of people; Mary’s close friendship with Donna Brazile; hairdressers as priests; Augustine; Pascal; the epistemological humility of Socrates; Stoicism; my mother’s mental illness; the crucifixion of Jesus; Mel Gibson’s version of the Passion; Willie Horton; Bernie one of the few pols championing class; the redistribution of wealth during Covid; the lockdowns; Boris and Partygate; George Floyd and BLM groupthink; Kyle Rittenhouse; Jussie Smollett; the narrative of structural racism; MLK envy and “the right side of history”; the Ferguson effect; innovative police work in NOLA; Mary fighting sex trafficking in NOLA; Tony Blair cementing the legacy of Margaret Thatcher; the lack of accountability from political consultants; the profundity of Winnie the Pooh; and which great Americans we should emulate today.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy (the first 102 are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: Adam Kirsch on his book On Settler Colonialism, John Gray on the state of liberal democracy, Jon Rauch on his new book on “Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy,” Nick Denton on the evolution of new media, and Ross Douthat on how everyone should be religious. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.

Mary Matalin On Living Outside Groupthink

The Dishcast with Andrew Sullivan

Mary Matalin On Living Outside Groupthink