Morality and war. Two words that seem to have nothing to do with each other. Yet as recent events have shown, our conscience pricks us every time we hear news of an atrocity, smarts at every war and rumor of war. Can a war ever be just? Does talk about morality in the conduct of war make any sense?

Joining Shadi and Damir to discuss this heady topic is Phil Klay, a novelist and essayist whose first book, the short story collection Redeployment, won the National Book Award in 2014. An Iraq War veteran, his work has focused on themes concerning war, citizenship, and the postwar life of veterans. His latest book is titled Uncertain Ground: Citizens in an Age of Endless, Invisible War.

This episode does not have the usual verbal sparring and back-and-forth. The tone is meditative and the questions are profound. Shadi opens the conversation with a direct question: What does morality have to do with war? Phil responds with a description of the Medieval practice of imposing penances on soldiers, even those who fought in just wars. Damir presses Phil with the nagging question of where the “shoulds” and “oughts” come from in Phil’s recent article about the war in Gaza. Phil develops a clear standard for sending citizens of a democracy to war. It is a fruitful idea, which Shadi and Damir chew on for the remainder of the episode. You won’t want to miss this one!

Required Reading:

* Redeployment by Phil Klay.

* Missionaries by Phil Klay.

* Uncertain Ground: Citizenship in an Age of Endless, Invisible War by Phil Klay.

* “U.S. Support for Israel’s War Has Become Indefensible,” by Phil Klay (The Atlantic).

* Phil’s interview with the New York Times.

* “What Do I Owe the Dead of My Generation’s Mismanaged Wars?” by Phil Klay (New York Times).

* Wisdom of Crowds episode with Samuel Moyn.

* Humane: How the United States Abandoned Peace and Reinvented War by Samuel Moyn.

* “Uncomfortably Numb” by Damir Marusic (“the Bucha essay”).

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Phil Klay on Morality and War

Wisdom of Crowds

Phil Klay on Morality and War