A simple question with loaded answers.

On today's episode, we unravel a few of those knots with Courtney Martin and Dr. Dena Simmons, whose interracial friendship has weathered distance, accountability, academic rigor, heartbreak, and mutual support. They met over a decade ago when Courtney profiled Dena for her book about young activists, Do It Anyway. At the time, Dena was a classroom teacher. Since then she has earned her PhD and is writing her own book about breaking up with whiteness, the forthcoming White Rules for Black People.

Dena also gave Courtney notes on a subsequent book, Learning in Public, about Courtney's decision to send her white child to her neighborhood school in Oakland, rather than seeking a private school or other public school that centered whiteness. Dena's notes and questions to Courtney are included in footnotes and strikeouts in the main text.

This is a conversation about building better schools, deeper community, and how friendship can be at the heart of our activism.

Learning in Public by Courtney Martin

Dena's website

Courtney's website

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