Chuck Todd delivers an analysis of the Virginia Supreme Court's decision tossing out the Democratic redistricting map — arguing Democrats pissed away enormous political capital for absolutely nothing and that the reaction on the left has been wildly out of proportion, treating the ruling like an election loss when it was actually a predictable consequence of trying to fight fire with fire. He notes that Democrats passed the Virginia map without ever bothering to figure out how the courts would rule, and that both Obama and Governor Spanberger spent serious political capital pushing a referendum that was always legally vulnerable. He pushes back hard on left-wing commentary framing the ruling as partisan: the Virginia Supreme Court isn't full of partisans — they're technocrats, and Democrats just spent years arguing for norms and process and then ignored norms and process. His central argument is that Democrats will never win a race to the bottom with Trump's GOP, that the "fight fire with fire" mentality is a huge strategic mistake, and that Democrats can absolutely win in newly created swing districts with the right candidates if they go back to persuading voters and building coalitions rather than treating voters as the problem. He argues that Democrats are still likely to win both the House and Senate in the midterms — proof that Trump has done nothing to improve the GOP's image and that the path back to a winning Democratic coalition is still wide open if the party chooses to take it.

Then, acclaimed music biographer Bob Spitz — author of definitive biographies of The Beatles and Led Zeppelin and now The Rolling Stones: The Biography, his five-year deep dive into the world's greatest rock and roll band — joins the Chuck Toddcast for a deeply enjoyable conversation about why the Stones have endured for over six decades and what their longevity says about the state of music itself. Spitz argues that the Stones gave us the foundation of the rock and roll sound and that, in many ways, there is no rock and roll today — modern musicians are producers more than performers, and now in their 80s the Stones are essentially one of the last bands keeping the form alive. He explains why their decision to flirt with politics in the 60s and then back off actually helped them endure, traces their close friendship with The Beatles , and describes Mick and Keith's strange but enduring marriage as the central engine of the band — held together by their shared love of playing live.

The conversation digs into the surprising musical and cultural backstory of how the Stones became the Stones — including the fascinating history of how white British kids embraced the blues more than American kids did. Spitz pays beautiful tribute to drummer Charlie Watts as the heart and soul of the group — a jazz lover who only played rock because it paid the bills and who, along with Ian Stewart, kept the band in line for decades — and discusses the profound effect of losing him on the band's chemistry. He explains why the Stones keep playing well into their 80s, why great guitarists are now a rare commodity with no real innovators emerging, and why Mick has stayed in such great shape. Spitz offers his verdict on the Stones' place in music history — they've come to understand themselves as the greatest rock band, and he agrees — and reveals what's next for him: a book about John Lennon's second act. He closes with a fascinating thought experiment posed by Chuck: if Mick Jagger had been killed and John Lennon had lived, would the trajectories of the two bands have completely switched?

Finally, Chuck hops into the ToddCast Time Machine to revisit the Supreme Court’s Brown vs. Board of Education decision and explains that the courts have been forced to rule on major structural changes to American society when congress refuses to legislate. He also answers listeners’ questions in the “Ask Chuck” segment.

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Timeline:

(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements)

00:00 Chuck Todd’s introduction

01:45 Democrats pissed away political capital in VA, then map was tossed

05:30 Reaction on the left to Virginia ruling has been like an election loss

07:00 It’s understandable that Democrats wanted to fight fire with fire

07:45 Democrats passed VA map without knowing how the courts would rule

08:30 Obama and Spanberger wasted political capital for nothing

09:45 Dems have argued for norms + process that court said they didn’t follow

10:30 Electing the judiciary is terrible for the rule of law

11:15 The VA Supreme Court aren’t partisans, they’re technocrats

12:30 Left wing commentary assumes it was a partisan decision… it wasn’t

14:00 Dem leadership in VA misled the party & the public on referendum

15:45 We still don’t know what the maps will look like in the south after redistricting

16:30 GOP has the redistricting advantage now, but courts may intervene

17:30 VA court may give courage to other courts to stop the gerrymandering

18:45 Democrats will never win a race to the bottom with Trump’s GOP

20:15 Democrats can win in newly created swing districts with right candidates

22:00 The “fight fire with fire” mentality is a huge mistake by the Dems

23:00 Democracy is eroded when both parties play scorched earth politics

24:15 Dems should be trying to persuade and coalition build

26:00 Republicans treat voters as the problem, Dems shouldn’t do the same

27:15 Dems want to be held to a higher standard, but don’t like it when they are

28:30 Dems did real damage to their credibility with Virginia redistricting

30:00 Trump has done nothing to improve the GOP’s image, Dems can still win

31:45 Democrats know what they’re against, but not what they’re for

33:30 Spanberger was put in an impossible position by her party

35:00 Spanberger knew that swing voters didn’t like the redistricting chaos

36:15 Dems practiced politics of addition under Obama, now in survival mode

37:45 Voters viewed the Democratic party as more principled, VA jeopardizes that

38:30 Dems still more likely to win both house and senate despite the ruling

46:00 Bob Spitz (Rolling Stones Biographer) joins the Chuck ToddCast

48:00 How long have you been thinking about writing this biography?

49:15 Keith Richards biography was a phenomenal book, but only Keith’s view

50:30 The Stones longevity as a group makes them more compelling

52:00 The Stones gave us the foundation of the rock and roll sound

53:15 There is no rock and roll today, musicians are producers now

55:15 In their 80’s, the Stones are still keeping rock and roll alive

56:30 The Stones flirted with being political, then backed off

57:15 Their lack of taking a stand actually helped them endure

58:45 The Stones became great friends with the Beatles

1:00:00 Mick Jagger & Paul McCartney explored joint business ventures

1:01:30 Without Paul or Mick, both bands may not have been financially viable

1:02:15 Mick & Keith seemed like a strange marriage, but they made it work

1:04:15 The music kept the band together, they love to play and perform

1:05:30 You have to see the Stones in concert to truly appreciate them

1:06:45 They’ve had countless “Farewell Tours” and always come back

1:08:00 Mick has kept in great shape, his father was a fitness celebrity

1:09:30 Fans pitted the Beatles vs. The Stones, but the bands never did

1:11:30 How did white British kids embrace the blues more than American kids?

1:12:15 American GI’s left their blues records behind in the UK

1:13:45 Chuck Berry was a massive influence on the Stones becoming rock

1:14:30 Charlie Watts was the heart and soul of the band

1:16:00 Charlie loved jazz, only played rock because it paid the bills

1:17:30 Charlie and Ian Stewart kept the band in line

1:18:45 The effect of losing Charlie Watts on the Stones

1:20:45 They keep playing because it sustains them as humans, not for the money

1:22:15 Does it bother Keith that everyone sits down when Jagger isn’t performing?

1:23:30 Great guitarists are a rare commodity these days, no innovators

1:24:30 Modern music doesn’t emphasize live instrumental performance

1:26:45 What is the Stones' place in the music universe?

1:27:15 They’ve come to understand themselves as the greatest rock band

1:28:15 Secret to the Stones longevity?

1:30:00 The Stones wouldn’t participate in an extended “Dead & Company” style

1:30:45 Mick is about to have great grandkids, and has a 30 year old girlfriend

1:31:15 Next project is a book about John Lennon’s second act

1:32:30 Beatles had an aversion to talking to the press

1:33:30 If Jagger had been killed & Lennon lived, would the bands switch trajectories?

1:38:15 ToddCast Time Machine - May 17th, 1954

1:39:00 Brown vs. Board was the court pushing back against a legal fiction

1:39:30 Plessy vs. Ferguson was the foundation for segregation

1:40:15 Segregation had to end via the courts, congress refused to end it

1:41:30 Southern Democrats held enormous power in the 50s

1:42:00 The system challenged by Brown had too much power in congress

1:42:45 The NAACP was chipping away at segregation one case at a time

1:43:30 The court needed a unanimous decision for Brown to have legitimacy

1:44:30 The US was championing freedom abroad while segregated at home

1:45:00 Without the cold war, we don’t desegregate or pass the Voting Rights Act

1:45:30 Court rules 9-0 on Brown, didn’t end segregation but delegitimized it

1:46:30 Southern politicians organized massive resistance

1:47:00 Federal troops sent into Little Rock to escort black students into school

1:47:45 Brown changed how Americans thought about the power of the court

1:48:30 Courts became more like political actors in decades after Brown

1:49:45 The ruling in Brown was definitive, its implementation was not

1:50:30 Ask Chuck

1:50:45 How much could voter suppression affect juiced Democratic turnout?

1:57:00 What if Trump never becomes a lame duck president?

2:01:30 Is gerrymandering creating better chances for moderates?

2:08:00 What are the most realistic options for scaling back entitlements?

2:13:15 Predictions for the political futures of Nikki Haley & Ron DeSantis?

2:19:15 Is there a scenario for a bipartisan impeachment to avoid bad pardons?

2:24:00 Greg Olsen was commencement speaker at Chuck’s daughters graduation

2:25:30 Thoughts on the NBA playoffs & NCAA tournament expansion

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Full Episode - Democrats Wasted Political Capital In Virginia…For Nothing + What Makes The Rolling Stones “The World’s Greatest Rock Band”

The Chuck ToddCast