The idea that white people — and white men in particular — face discrimination has become something of an obsession on the American right.

It’s a view that my guest this week shares. Jeremy Carl was nominated to a State Department post by the Trump administration, which sparked a lot of controversy. Carl is the author of “The Unprotected Class,” in which he makes the case that white Americans are in danger of becoming “second-class citizens.”

I wanted to know what he thinks constitutes anti-white discrimination and whether focusing on it inevitably leads to white nationalism. After we taped this interview, Carl withdrew his nomination, acknowledging that he lacked enough support to be confirmed.

0:00 - Intro
01:59 - Jeremy Carl’s trajectory and State Department Nomination
05:24 - The Civil Rights Act and rise of anti-white Discrimination
12:20 - The impact of immigration on white Americans
24:53 - The "radicalization" of D.E.I.
37:37 - Carl’s provocative language and controversial tweets
51:06 - “White culture” vs. “civic nationalism”
01:01:00 - The fours pillars of “Americanness”

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

White Identity Is Galvanizing the Right

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat