Amy Littlefield — investigative reporter for The Nation and author of the new book Killers of Roe: My Investigation into the Mysterious Death of Abortion Rights — joins the Chuck Toddcast for a fascinating deep dive into the decades-long campaign that dismantled abortion rights in America, framed through the lens of an Agatha Christie-style murder mystery where the killers turn out to be the people you least suspect. Littlefield reveals that the death of Roe was not a single blow but death by a thousand stab wounds from multiple suspects: a Catholic hospital system that now controls one in six beds in America with reproductive care restrictions, an evangelical movement that amassed enormous political power in the Reagan era, a Democratic Party that was deeply complicit — the Hyde Amendment passed through a Democratic-majority Congress and real women died as a result — and operatives like Leonard Leo, who hand-delivered Trump a list of Supreme Court justices guaranteed to overturn Roe. Littlefield argues that anti-abortion activists brilliantly copied the playbook of the civil rights movement, that fighting against something is inherently more galvanizing than defending something, and that reproductive rights groups like Planned Parenthood and NARAL were constantly outflanked by a more organized, more disciplined opposition that understood single-issue voters could be leveraged for outsized political power.

The conversation turns to the future of reproductive rights in a post-Dobbs America — and the picture is more complicated than either side admits. Littlefield points out that the number of abortions has actually increased since the Dobbs decision, that anti-abortion ballot initiatives consistently lose even in conservative areas, and that there's 80% public support that could be leveraged if the movement reframed its message around freedom rather than choice and connected reproductive rights to economic concerns. But she warns that anti-abortion activists aren't done: they want birth control and IVF outlawed next, and anti-women political movements are gaining momentum globally.

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Timeline:

(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements)

00:00 Amy Littlefield joins the Chuck ToddCast

01:30 Why did you choose the murder mystery framing for this book?

02:45 1 in 6 beds is in a Catholic hospital that have reproductive care restrictions

04:15 Agatha Christie’s style was an inspiration for the book

07:15 We know the political side of the story, wanted to tell the activist story

08:45 Getting the Roe decision required a strong grassroots movement

09:15 The Catholic church has a strong organizational operation

10:30 Reproductive rights wasn’t a left vs. right issue in the 70s and 80s

12:45 Democrats have been complicit in the erosion of reproductive rights

13:45 The Hyde amendment got through a Democratic majority congress

14:45 Evangelicals amassed huge political power in the Reagan era

15:30 Reagan flipped his position on abortion during his presidency

17:15 Abortion and guns are the two single-issue voting issues

18:00 Republicans extracted huge power out of single issue voters

19:15 People are willing to compromise other values for anti-abortion position

20:00 Anti-abortion activists know they don’t have majority support

21:30 Was “choice” the worst word they could pick? Why not frame it as freedom?

24:15 Examining the first deaths after the passage of Hyde amendment

25:00 Why didn’t deaths due to the Hyde amendment galvanize voters?

27:30 Justices didn’t want 5-4 on Roe so they came up with convoluted argument

28:30 A flawed legal rationale isn’t why Roe fell

30:00 The abortion rights fight has always been in the states

31:45 The debate has been over codifying Roe or codifying a right

33:45 Repealing the Hyde amendment was biggest win in years for abortion rights

35:30 Planned Parenthood has had an oversized role in defending abortion rights

36:15 Would there be a Federalist Society without Roe?

37:00 Leonard Leo handed Trump the names of justices that would overturn Roe

38:15 Anti-abortion activists copied the playbook of the civil rights movement

39:45 Is there anybody on the pro-abortion rights side that deserves blame for Dobbs?

41:00 Reproductive rights groups like PP and NARAL were constantly outflanked

42:00 Fighting against something is more galvanizing than defending something

43:30 Anti-abortion ballot initiatives consistently lose, even in conservative areas

46:00 Conservatives have laid claim to the words “freedom” and “patriot”

48:15 Does the codification of abortion rights happen by the 2030s?

50:15 Reproductive rights aren’t talked about in an economic framing

52:00 Can abortion rights movement draft off heavy support for birth control?

52:30 Anti-abortion activists want to see birth control and IVF outlawed

54:30 Will activists go to congress for an answer or will it be a long campaign?

55:30 Number of abortions has gone up since the Dobbs decision

57:30 Death of Roe was death by a thousand stab wounds from many suspects

59:30 Anti-abortion and anti-women political movements are gaining momentum

1:00:45 Republican women look uncomfortable with position they’ve been put in

1:02:45 People sharing their stories with abortion is incredibly important

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Interview Only w/ Amy Littlefield - Who Is Responsible For The Death Of Roe?

The Chuck ToddCast