Ep. 224 (Part 1 of 2) | John Fugelsang, author of the brilliant, irreverent book, Separation of Church and Hate: A Sane Person’s Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock-Fleecing Frauds, talks eloquently about the difference between true Christianity as taught by Jesus and the hateful teachings of Christian nationalists and televangelists who are in it for the power and the money. John grew up with a clear notion of what Christianity should look like; his parents lived their faith grounded in peace, love, empathy, and service, dedicating their lives to helping people in need, no matter their color or differences. So John set out to take the Bible back from “small-minded, right-wing, nationalist racists,” because he finds it tragic that vast numbers of people are being alienated from faith altogether, and he wanted to give his readers arguments they could use to face off with right-wing Christians about what the Bible really says. Christians and atheists have told him his book validates all of their beliefs, and he has inspired crowds of atheists to cheer loudly for Jesus.

John is an actor, comedian, and talk show host, and his quick wit and well-informed, well-intentioned intellect make for a fast-paced, enjoyable, and educational foray into subjects such as how right-wing nationalists have made Christianity out to be a religion of condemnation and domination; how they quote Saint Paul, with all of his sex hangups and homophobia, rather than Jesus; and how it’s always been the Christ followers pushing back against authoritarian Christianity—adding that Jesus’ teachings are as threatening to authoritarian power today as they were 2,000 years ago. This is a timely, very important conversation about a subject that involves all of us: reclaiming the foundational values of love, humility, open-mindedness, and service. Recorded December 18, 2025.

“Jesus is not about condemnation or domination; his whole movement is about transformation.”

Topics & Time Stamps – Part 1

Introducing John Fugelsang, award-winning actor & comedian, author of Separation of Church and Hate (00:40)
Feeling your religion of peace and love has been hijacked by small-minded, right-wing, nationalist racists (02:59)
What was John’s experience writing Separation of Church and Hate? (05:15)
How could a religion of love be the same as the fundamentalist stuff we hear on televangelical TV? (08:58)
Religion didn’t invent hate, but hate has always found a home in religion (11:25)
It’s always been the Christ followers who push back against authoritarian Christianity (14:26)
It was Saint Paul—not Jesus—who was anti-woman, anti-gay, and a persecutor of Christians (16:51)
Hypocrisy is what outraged Jesus (21:51)
Right-wing Christianity does not care about the teachings of Christ, only about conservative Christian power (23:47)
The media never covers all the ways people of different religions get along just fine (26:29)
Showing our right-wing Christian relatives that Jesus is not an immigrant-hating homophobe in the Bible does more good than calling them out for being immigrant-hating homophobes (29:34)
Using scripture & nonviolence to shame frauds out of the Christian nationalism racket (31:50)
In the Bible, you can find anything you want to justify your actions (33:29)
How has John’s book been received? (35:46)
Fundamentalism in any religion means you know that God thinks you’re better than other people (38:19)
Fundamentalism is rooted in a particular stage of development where absolute beliefs—black & white, right & wrong—are what’s most important (40:13)

Resources & References – Part 1

John Fugelsang, Separation of Church and Hate: A Sane Person’s Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock-Fleecing Frauds
John Fugelsang’s SiriusXM show: Tell Me Everything
John Fugelsang’s podcast: The Sanity-Cast
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, pastor who gave his life resisting Nazi Germany’s Christian nationalism
Paul the Apostle was born Saul of Tarsus
Bishop John Shelby Spong of Newark
Matthew 25
Senator Raphael Warlock uses scripture & nonviolence to shame frauds out of the racket of Christian nationalism

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John Fugelsang is the author of the New York Times bestseller SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND HATE: A Sane Person’s Guide To Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock-Fleecing Frauds. He has been murdered on CSI and picketed by the Westboro Baptist Church. John is a Drama League–nominated actor, comedian, and broadcaster, who’s hosted many TV shows and podcasts, including the acclaimed Tell Me Everything series on SiriusXM Progress.

He got George Harrison to give his final performance on VH1, debated Jerry Falwell and David Duke, and made many appearances on MSNBC, FOX News, and CNN. His epic PBS road trip film on the American Dream, Dream On, directed by Roger Weisberg, was named Best Documentary at the New York Independent Film Festival. Fugelsang lives in New York City with his family.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists & Frauds (You Seriously Believe Jesus Said What?) with John Fugelsang

Deep Transformation