In this episode, host and math professor Anna Stokke interviews Mike Petrilli, President of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, about the role of standardized testing in K–12 education. They discuss the benefits and criticisms of standardized tests, the methodologies behind tests like NAEP, international comparisons with PISA and TIMSS, long-term trends in student performance, and the consequences of declines in student achievement.

Highlights include a discussion of Mississippi's educational success despite high poverty rates, and the potential influences of modern educational policies and smartphones. Mike Petrilli emphasizes the importance of accurate measurement for policymaking and shares advice on influencing educational policy. This episode is a must-listen for educators, policymakers, parents, and anyone interested in the future of education.

FREE WEBINAR: The Science of Math Instruction: Using Evidence-Based Practices in the Classroom, May 8, 2025. Registration link: https://home.edweb.net/webinar/mathskills20250508/

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:03:18] Discussion on standardized testing

[00:06:14] Criticisms of standardized testing

[00:12:25] Frequency and levels of testing

[00:20:04] International perspectives on testing

[00:23:11] Understanding NAEP

[00:28:07] Recent trends in NAEP scores

[00:28:41] Impact of the pandemic

[00:31:16] Pre-pandemic declines

[00:32:26] Comparing international trends: PISA scores

[00:33:08] The role of smartphones

[00:35:26] TIMSS scores

[00:38:16] Long-term impact of declining academic achievement

[00:39:20] Efforts to address learning loss

[00:42:12] States that bucked the trend: the “Mississippi miracle”

[00:46:44] Low-performing states

[00:49:54] Future strategies for education systems

[00:53:22] Influencing educational policy

[00:55:49] Conclusion and final thoughts

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Ep 33. Educational leadership: Improving math and literacy with Scott Hill https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-vpzf8-16d0c17

Ep 32. Identifying and educating advanced students with Jonathan Plucker https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-y6cxs-16ad6f1

Ep 25. Understanding reform math ideology with Tom Loveless https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7ih4c-15dbf9a

Ep 18. Education myth-busting with Daisy Christodoulou https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-z2q9q-14ce080

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-45-transcript

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-45-resources

MUSIC

Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Blue Dot Sessions – Mazamorra, Tarte Tatin, Willow Willow, Betty Dear, Lissa Website: www.annastokke.com

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

A decade of decline: Examining falling test scores with Mike Petrilli (Ep 45)

Chalk & Talk