The programming language after Kotlin – with the creator of Kotlin | The Pragmatic Engineer

The podcast explores the creation and evolution of the Kotlin programming language with Andrey Breslav, its creator. Breslav recounts Kotlin's origins at JetBrains, driven by the need for a modern alternative to Java, and highlights key design principles such as pragmatic borrowing from languages like Scala and C#. He details the challenges of ensuring seamless Java interoperability and the unexpected surge in Kotlin's popularity after Google's endorsement for Android development. Breslav also discusses his current project, CodeSpeak, a language designed for the AI era, aiming to simplify programming by leveraging LLMs and natural language. The conversation touches on the future of software engineering, emphasizing the continued importance of human oversight and intent in a world increasingly shaped by AI.

Outlines

Part 1: Origins, Motivation

Part 2: Design, Features, Philosophy

Part 3: Development, Interoperability, Growth

Part 4: Future of Programming, AI

Part 5: Advice, Reflections

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The programming language after Kotlin – with the creator of Kotlin

The Pragmatic Engineer

Part 1: Origins, Motivation

The Genesis of Kotlin: From Frustration with Java to a New Language

Groovy, Scala, and the Opportunity for a Pragmatic Static Language

From Whiteboard Sketches to Choosing the "Crazy Thing": Building Kotlin

How to Start a Language: Whiteboarding, Pain Points, and an IDE Plugin

Naming the Language: From "Jet" to Kotlin, a Googleable Island

Part 2: Design, Features, Philosophy

Modernizing Java: Lambdas, Verbosity, and the Introduction of Null Safety

The Billion Dollar Mistake: Kotlin's Approach to Null Safety

Shoulders of Giants: Kotlin's Pragmatic Borrowing from Other Languages

C#, Groovy, and Gosu: Influences on Kotlin's Syntax and Smart Casts

Pattern Matching and the Ternary Operator: Features Considered and Omitted

Part 3: Development, Interoperability, Growth

Java Interoperability: A Gigantic Undertaking and Core Selling Point

Project Timeline and Team Composition: From Prototype to Release

Release Process and Compatibility Management: Bootstrapping and Experimental Features

From Server-Side Focus to Android Success: An Unexpected Platform

Google's Official Support: A Game-Changing Announcement

Part 4: Future of Programming, AI

CodeSpeak: A New Language for the AI Era

CodeSpeak: English-Based Programming with LLMs as Libraries

The Future of Programming: Humans in Charge, Managing Complexity

Developer Tools in the AI Era: Integration, Review, and Testing

Part 5: Advice, Reflections

Advice for Developers: Embrace the Tools, Focus on Core Skills

Rapid Fire: Favorite Tool and Book Recommendation

Final Thoughts: The Missing Intent Layer in AI Coding

The programming language after Kotlin – with the creator of Kotlin

The Pragmatic Engineer

Part 1: Origins, Motivation

00:00The Genesis of Kotlin: From Frustration with Java to a New Language

The Genesis of Kotlin: From Frustration with Java to a New Language

04:37Groovy, Scala, and the Opportunity for a Pragmatic Static Language

Groovy, Scala, and the Opportunity for a Pragmatic Static Language

10:15From Whiteboard Sketches to Choosing the "Crazy Thing": Building Kotlin

From Whiteboard Sketches to Choosing the "Crazy Thing": Building Kotlin

14:25How to Start a Language: Whiteboarding, Pain Points, and an IDE Plugin

How to Start a Language: Whiteboarding, Pain Points, and an IDE Plugin

20:04Naming the Language: From "Jet" to Kotlin, a Googleable Island

Naming the Language: From "Jet" to Kotlin, a Googleable Island

Part 2: Design, Features, Philosophy

24:36Modernizing Java: Lambdas, Verbosity, and the Introduction of Null Safety

Modernizing Java: Lambdas, Verbosity, and the Introduction of Null Safety

28:34The Billion Dollar Mistake: Kotlin's Approach to Null Safety

The Billion Dollar Mistake: Kotlin's Approach to Null Safety

31:41Shoulders of Giants: Kotlin's Pragmatic Borrowing from Other Languages

Shoulders of Giants: Kotlin's Pragmatic Borrowing from Other Languages

35:59C#, Groovy, and Gosu: Influences on Kotlin's Syntax and Smart Casts

C#, Groovy, and Gosu: Influences on Kotlin's Syntax and Smart Casts

40:41Pattern Matching and the Ternary Operator: Features Considered and Omitted

Pattern Matching and the Ternary Operator: Features Considered and Omitted

Part 3: Development, Interoperability, Growth

44:54Java Interoperability: A Gigantic Undertaking and Core Selling Point

Java Interoperability: A Gigantic Undertaking and Core Selling Point

55:11Project Timeline and Team Composition: From Prototype to Release

Project Timeline and Team Composition: From Prototype to Release

57:58Release Process and Compatibility Management: Bootstrapping and Experimental Features

Release Process and Compatibility Management: Bootstrapping and Experimental Features

1:04:30From Server-Side Focus to Android Success: An Unexpected Platform

From Server-Side Focus to Android Success: An Unexpected Platform

1:12:20Google's Official Support: A Game-Changing Announcement

Google's Official Support: A Game-Changing Announcement

Part 4: Future of Programming, AI

1:18:19CodeSpeak: A New Language for the AI Era

CodeSpeak: A New Language for the AI Era

1:21:32CodeSpeak: English-Based Programming with LLMs as Libraries

CodeSpeak: English-Based Programming with LLMs as Libraries

1:27:50The Future of Programming: Humans in Charge, Managing Complexity

The Future of Programming: Humans in Charge, Managing Complexity

1:35:31Developer Tools in the AI Era: Integration, Review, and Testing

Developer Tools in the AI Era: Integration, Review, and Testing

Part 5: Advice, Reflections

1:38:42Advice for Developers: Embrace the Tools, Focus on Core Skills

Advice for Developers: Embrace the Tools, Focus on Core Skills

1:42:32Rapid Fire: Favorite Tool and Book Recommendation

Rapid Fire: Favorite Tool and Book Recommendation

1:43:35Final Thoughts: The Missing Intent Layer in AI Coding

Final Thoughts: The Missing Intent Layer in AI Coding