Ep. 202 (Part 1 of 2) | In this rich, delightful, and profound conversation, integralist Father David McCallum, SJ, currently serving the Vatican as executive director of the Program for Discerning Leadership, leads us into a world filled with mission, purpose, and service, foundational to which is the practice of discernment. David describes discernment as the capacity to exercise good judgment, hold complexity, and wait for clarity. This is not only a practice for individuals, he explains, but also a communal one, providing a way for communities to discern and design together the future they want to create—through listening, dialoguing, participating. Discernment is a way of knowing and making sense of reality, David continues, and especially important now in this era of changes and choices to be made.

David enlightens us as to the beautiful and far-sighted reforms proposed by the late Pope Francis, who was all for changing the balance of authority and participation in the Church; for people to have direct experience of Presence and the capacity to practice discernment; who also advocated for taking swift action on behalf of our planet, even calling out the part in the Bible that says man has dominion over the Earth. From David’s description of “the journey worth making”—surrendering, opening, accepting divine grace and love—to using Otto Scharmer’s U Process to help find the courage to change and simplify our lives for the benefit of all, to the Church’s relationship with A.I., David provides us with an extraordinarily mind-broadening, motivating, and spiritually fulfilling perspective. Recorded July 10, 2025.

“No secular, material, and empirical path is going to satisfy the longing we have for a transcendent purpose, for meaning, for existential belonging, in the ways that a healthy spirituality can.”

Topics & Time Stamps – Part 1

Introducing Fr. David McCallum, integrally informed Jesuit priest currently serving the Vatican as the executive director of the Program for Discerning Leadership (00:48)
How did David come to devote his life to the Catholic Church? (01:48)
The journey worth making: surrendering, opening, accepting grace (09:42)
So many are disconnected from the deeper wellspring of spirituality (13:07)
Pope Francis was a reformer, focused on changing the balance of authority and participation (16:46)
Pope Francis also focused on the process of synodality, real dialogue, the importance of discernment & following where the spirit wants to lead us (19:31)
Pope Leo XIV, self-effacing, generous, hard working, introspective, bringing balance and discipline (22:27)
How does David’s understanding of developmental stages inform his work? (25:28)
Using metatheories as a map to make sense of the change in era we are living through now (28:09)
The rise of secularism; also burgeoning fundamentalism (31:26)
Without faith, how can we make sense of suffering? (33:25)
The temptation of ideology in these anxiety-producing times (36:07)
What is discernment?
Communal discernment: What is the future we want to create together? (40:39)

Resources & References – Part 1

The Way of Spiritual Discernment: Attuning to Inner Guidance to Serve Oneself & the World with Fr. David McCallum, SJ (Part 1)

Deep Transformation