Ethan Smith is the CEO of Graphite—the leading SEO growth agency—and my go-to expert on SEO. After 18 years of mastering traditional SEO, Ethan has been at the forefront of what is called AEO: answer engine optimization, or, more simply, getting your product to show up in ChatGPT/Claude/Gemini/Perplexity answers. He’s discovered that ChatGPT traffic converts six times better than Google search—and most companies are completely missing this opportunity.

In our conversation, we discuss:

1. His 7-step playbook to rank #1 in ChatGPT

2. Why ChatGPT traffic converts 6x better than Google

3. How early-stage startups can win at AEO immediately (unlike with SEO, which takes years)

4. The three tactics that actually work: landing pages, YouTube videos, and Reddit comments

5. Why help-center content can suddenly be your highest-ROI investment

6. The specific Reddit strategy that works (spoiler: be authentic)

7. Why AI-generated content doesn’t work

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Where to find Ethan Smith:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/ethan_l_s

• LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ethans-linkedin

• Graphite: https://graphite.io/

• Graphite Research Papers: https://bit.ly/graphite-five-percent

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Welcome back, Ethan

(04:34) The changing landscape of SEO

(06:19) AEO (answer engine optimization) vs. GEO (generative engine optimization)

(08:13) The impact of AEO

(11:51) How early-stage startups can win at AEO

(14:34) The quality of AEO leads

(15:35) On-site vs. off-site traffic

(16:32) Reddit’s role in AEO and avoiding spam

(20:11) How AI models use citations (RAG)

(21:41) Key principles for winning at AEO

(25:00) Avoiding hyper-SEOed content, and the importance of originality

(28:55) Actionable AEO playbook: steps and experiments

(33:35) Tracking, measuring, and share of voice

(38:34) Adapting AEO for B2B, commerce, and early-stage companies

(41:11) Is letting AI index your content good?

(43:06) Experimentation, control groups, and measuring results

(46:15) The future of AEO, SEO, and search channels

(51:35) AI-generated content: what works and what doesn’t

(55:25) The dangers of infinite AI derivatives

(58:44) The future: convergence of LLMs and search

(01:00:40) Help-center optimization and the long tail

(01:03:18) Lightning round and final thoughts

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Resources and episode mentions: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-aeo-ethan-smith

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

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The ultimate guide to AEO: How to get ChatGPT to recommend your product | Ethan Smith (Graphite)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth (private feed for popufig@gmail.com)