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Julian Kiverstein is a senior professor at Amsterdam Medical. He's co-authored various papers about the importance of play as it relates to active inference, intimacy and embodied cognition.

Play isn't just for children—it's a fundamental aspect of human flourishing at every stage of life. When we engage in play, we discover the sweet spot where risk and safety converge, creating perfect conditions for growth and development. This conversation with Julian Kiverstein, senior researcher at Amsterdam University Medical Center, explores how playfulness helps us break free from habitual patterns and attractor states that can trap us in suboptimal ways of being.

Drawing from his extensive work in phenomenology, embodied cognition, and predictive processing, Julian offers fresh perspectives on how play connects to mental health and wellbeing. We discuss how conditions like depression, addiction and OCD might be understood as instances where people become stuck in rigid patterns, unable to explore alternative ways of engaging with the world. By contrast, playfulness involves stepping outside our comfort zones to discover new possibilities—but crucially, this exploration happens within contexts where we feel fundamentally safe.

• Play requires safety yet involves taking risks—a paradoxical relationship that enables personal growth
• Adults often lose the curious openness of childhood as we become fixated on seriousness and habitual patterns
• Love shares qualities with play as both involve transcendence beyond the self and openness to fresh experiences
• Active inference and predictive processing provide frameworks for understanding both mental illness and flourishing
• Breaking out of "attractor states" or fixed patterns requires disruption that playful activities can provide
• Creating safe spaces for play becomes essential for development, creativity, and meaning-making

00:00 The Role of Play in Well-being
01:50 Introduction to Love and Philosophy
02:45 Exploring Active Inference and Predictive Processing
05:24 The Importance of Play in Development
09:58 Julian Stein's Journey into Mind Studies
12:11 Understanding Mental Illness through Predictive Processing
21:57 The Concept of Play and Its Cognitive Benefits
30:27 Intrinsic Motivation and the Value of Play
44:12 Play as a Disruptive Force in Mental Health
45:09 Understanding Mental Illness and Uncertainty
46:13 The Role of Play in Mental Health
47:38 Creating Safe Spaces for Emotional Regulation
49:05 Exploration vs. Exploitation in Learning
52:03 The Importance of Play in Adulthood
53:35 Art, Literature, and Emotional Engagement
56:55 The Need for Play in Academia
01:20:50 Balancing Exploration and Familiarity
01:23:37 Final Thoughts on Play and Well-being

Intimate Places: Playgrounds for self-exploration

Julian's papers

JK and Darius Active Inference Institute

Harry Heft Conversation

Karl Friston Conversation

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#65 The Mental Sweet Spot: On Play, Risk, Surprise & Active Inference with Julian Kiverstein

Love & Philosophy