You’ve heard it before: “People don’t quit jobs; they quit bad bosses.” But is that really the whole story? Why do employees really leave their jobs? That’s exactly what we’ll answer today with our guest.

Meet Michael Horn. Michael is the co-author of Job Moves: 9 Steps for Making Progress In Your Career. Michael strives to create a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential, and live a life of purpose. He is the author of several books, including the award-winning Disrupting Class, Choosing College, Blended, and From Reopen to Reinvent.

He is the co-founder and a distinguished fellow at the Clayton Christensen Institute, a non-profit think tank, and teaches at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. He also co-hosts the top higher education podcast, Future U., writes the popular Substack newsletter The Future of Education, and is a regular contributor to Forbes.com.

In this episode, Michael shares his research into job transitions, highlighting the four distinct clusters and how managers can better support their teams.

We explore how understanding each team member’s personal goals, life circumstances, and work preferences can create a stronger, more aligned team.

Plus, in the extended episode available to Podcast+ members, Michael dives into strategies for how managers can take control of the situation, work with HR for extra support, and leverage practical tools like personal cheat sheets to improve communication between managers and employees.

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Conversation Topics

(00:00) Introduction
(01:49) Defining the “Jobs to Be Done” methodology
(04:27) Examples of common “push” and “pull” factors in job decisions
(07:22) The four macro clusters in job transitions
(11:35) Signs to watch for when an employee is considering leaving
(18:08) Team dynamics and their impact on employee dissatisfaction
(19:09) Why convincing someone to stay could hurt your team
(23:03) Should managers share their own “pushes” and “pulls” with their teams?
(24:34) Using assessments to gauge job satisfaction (and dissatisfaction) in real-time
(27:16) A great manager Michael has worked with
(28:05) Keep up with Michael
(29:04) [Extended Episode Only] How managers can take control when an employee is thinking of leaving
(34:02) [Extended Episode Only] Working with HR for extra support and the magic of personalized cheat sheets

Additional Resources:

- Get the extended episode by Joining The Modern Manager Podcast+ Community for just $15 per month

- Read the full transcript here

- Follow me on Instagram here

- Visit my website for more here

- Upskill your team here

- Subscribe to my YouTube Channel here

Keep up with Michael Horn

- Follow Michael on LinkedIn here

- Grab a copy of Michael’s new book, Job Moves, here

Book Giveaway: 5 Free Signed Copies of Job Moves

Michael is giving away five copies of his book Job Moves: 9 Steps for Making Progress In Your Career to members of Podcast+. Full of useful activities and tools, Job Moves offers the timeless framework of our generation to help anyone create a career that will be happier and more fulfilling. You must enter the drawing by February 28th.

To get this guest bonus and many other member benefits, become a member of The Modern Manager Podcast+ Community.

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343: The Real Reason People Leave Jobs (And How to Retain Your Best Employees) w/ Michael Horn

The Modern Manager