John Gray and David Runciman on Finding Meaning in a Post-Liberal World

In this episode of Intelligence Squared, David Runciman interviews John Gray about his new book, "The New Leviathans: Thoughts After Liberalism," which draws inspiration from Thomas Hobbes' "Leviathan." They discuss Hobbes' concept of "mortal gods" and its relation to liberalism. Gray argues that liberalism has evolved through three stages: Hobbesian liberalism (skeptical and political), Mill's canonical liberalism (a religion of humanity), and contemporary hyper-liberalism (a self-deceived religion). Gray critiques hyper-liberalism, associating it with "woke" culture and arguing that it paradoxically creates hierarchies while claiming to be universal. He uses examples from Russian history and literature, particularly Dostoevsky's "The Possessed," to illustrate how societies can quickly descend into chaos when illusions about human perfectibility are shattered. Gray suggests that hyper-liberalism, like early Christianity, offers meaning and security in an insecure world, but its universalist claims and Western-centric perspective are problematic.