On the latest episode of the Energy Capital Podcast, I dive into our listeners' questions on a wide range of energy-related topics. Listeners reached out over the past week with questions on demand growth, microgrids, civic engagement in state energy policy, retail choice, water heater energy efficiency and demand response, the potential for reconductoring, and much more.

This is our first ever mailbag episode so we would love to hear your feedback. Let us know if you would like to get more episodes like these and/or your thoughts on what we talked about.

This podcast is for paid subscribers only and will not be listed publicly on podcast apps. For details on how to listen to this podcast in your favorite podcast app, please refer to this information from Substack.

If you like the episode, please don’t forget to recommend, like, and share on Substack, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts; don’t hesitate to share them with me and fellow listeners in the comments. Thank you for listening and for being a subscriber! Transcript, show notes, and timestamps are below.

Time Stamps

0:21 - ERCOT’s projected demand growth

05:26 - Larger retail businesses and microgrids

9:04 - How residents can make their voices heard in policy, regulatory, and business decision making related to the energy system

12:31 - Resources and organizations for policy and regulatory engagement

15:15 - How energy industry professionals can make a difference and shape the conversation of grid policy

18:03 - Heat pump water heaters and their potential to reduce demand

25:47 - Upgrading transmission lines in Texas, reconductoring, and dynamic transmission

Show Notes

A Skeptic’s Take on AI and Energy Growth, Shift Key Podcast from HeatMap

Public Citizen

Solar United Neighbors

Office of Public Engagement at the Public Utility Commission of Texas

Demand Flexibility of Water Heaters from the American Council for and Energy Efficient Economy (ACEEE)

A Powerful Priority: How Appliance Standards Can Help Meet U.S. Climate Goals and Save Consumers Money by Joanna Mauer and Andrew deLaski

US Energy Information Administration: End Uses

The Clean Grid Initiative

“Grid-enhancing technologies” can squeeze a lot more power from the existing electric grid

Transcript

Doug Lewin

I'm Doug Lewin. Welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast mailbox episode. I have with me today, Emily Odgers, who's gonna help facilitate this episode. Emily has been behind the scenes making all these podcasts sound good. Thanks for all you're doing, Emily. And thanks for being willing to ask the questions on this Mailbag episode.

Emily Odgers

Yeah, of course, happy to be here. So I think we're going to start off today with a question about demand. You wrote in your last Substack article about ERCOT's new demand numbers. What do you think about those numbers? And can we meet that type of growth and demand?

Doug Lewin

Yeah. So this, uh, since I wrote this article yesterday and there's been a lot of activity on Twitter, about this presentation from ERCOT, which actually happened over a week ago, but is now kind of just getting out there and people are starting to realize what it, what it might mean. I want to recommend to the audience, um, another podcast that I've started to become a fan of it's relatively new. It's called Shift Key by the good folks at Heatmap, Robinson Meyer and Jesse Jenkins, and they had Jonathan Koomey on talking about this kind of, this wave of announcements and studies of new demand coming on. And they are kind of pushing back a little bit on that and saying, we're probably not going to see quite the levels of demand. So I recommend folks listen to that after you listen to this one, don't leave this one yet.

But I think that they're, they're basically right. I think what, what ERCOT has said is, they have generally been forecasting about 94 gigawatts of demand by 2030. So let's put that in perspective. Right now, the peak ever, all time peak in ERCOT is about 85, a little bit more than 85, about 85 and a half gigawatts. That was last August.

So they've been saying eight or nine gigawatts over the next six years. It's certainly not nothing as a 10% growth, it's pretty robust, but they come out at this regional planning group, which is a place where transmission planning is discussed. And they say, actually, we think there might be another 62 gigawatts on top of the increase we were already projecting. So we're looking at something like over 150 gigawatts again, from 85 and a peak at the beginning of the decade, only 75. So literally a doubling in the space of less than 10 years. I don't believe we've seen that kind of growth rate since the 1950s, right? When we're like in a post-war manufacturing boom. So I think that these numbers are probably wrong. They have one place in there where they say they expect the minimum load. And again, they don't quite expect this. We should be careful in the language. What ERCOT is trying to say is we're looking at requests to interconnect and we're looking at a bunch of different things and this might be the way it goes. But one of the slides said 88 gigawatts of minimum load in 2027.

So the maximum load last year was 85. They're saying the minimum, the lowest it would ever get on the grid three years from now would be higher than the max last year. I think that that is too much. I don't think we're gonna see that kind of load growth for a lot of the reasons that Robinson and Jesse and Jonathan got into in that Shift Key episode on rising demand, which includes we're gonna see more efficiency um, from the, for instance, the Nvidia chips that are being used in AI.

All of that being said though, Emily, I do think we are going to see rapid growth. I don't think we're going to see this doubling in the space of the next five or six years, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. And in fact, I think if you're plotting a bell curve of like most likely outcomes, increased demand growth somewhere in the 20 to 30 gigawatt range, which is, you know, 30% kind of growth from last year in the next five or six years, I think we are likely to see that. And the main reasons are, yes, AI data centers, but don't, it's not just that. Don't make the mistake of thinking this is all AI data centers. The oil and gas industry has told us they want to connect somewhere between six and ten additional gigawatts in the next ten years.

We are seeing, as I talked about in the very first podcast,with a former Commissioner McAdams. And he talked about one of the things that led to high demand during Uri being industrial electrification. We are seeing a ton of industrial electrification in Houston and Corpus Christi, all along the Gulf Coast. You know, we're going to see carbon capture machines connected, electric vehicle fleets. I could go on. There's a lot of new electric loads coming. So I think the conclusion to that is we should be looking at rapid load growth, but not nearly this level of sort of the eye popping numbers. So instead of 150 gigawatts by 2030, maybe somewhere in the range of 105 to 125, somewhere in that range. And of course, I'm guessing like anybody else looking out into the future, but like that, that's a very different thing than than 150. And I think, you know, I think it's possible we could actually be able to meet that kind of growth potentially.

Emily Odgers

That's really helpful. Yeah, and given that we are expecting this type of growth, I think it makes sense to start thinking about strategies to help manage it and reduce it. And so that brings me to a question from one of our listeners, Jorge, who asked about microgrids and what can be done to incentivize big box businesses like Walmart or Target to deploy solar panels and batteries on their roofs.

What do you think could be done to pressure these types, well, not necessarily pressure, but to encourage these types of businesses to deploy microgrids to incorporate more renewables and things like that?

Doug Lewin

Yeah, so I think that a number of big box stores are certainly already doing this. H-E-B, the beloved grocer in Texas, and all of our Texas listeners will know all about H-E-B. There is no brand that does better in this state than H-E-B. They have microgrids at maybe not a majority of their stores, but a majority of their large stores. Most of those are natural gas systems provided by a company called Enchanted Rock, but they're also doing quite a bit of solar.

And what happens when a company like H-E-B puts that kind of system in is they have much better reliability and resiliency, right? So famously during Winter Storm Uri, most of the large H-E-Bs and all of them that had Enchanted Rock systems on them kept running during Winter Storm Uri. And of course, Winter Storm Uri, obviously, you know, the most dramatic and traumatic grid event, I guess, ever. Um, but there are lots of smaller outages that happen throughout the year. Some on blue sky days, obviously when, when there's hurricanes or even just a storm knocks a tree over and hits a power line, squirrel gets into a transformer, so on and so forth.

So it is in the best interest of these companies to have, uh, these microgrids. And then in addition to the reliability and resilience benefits, Emily, you also get the cost benefits. So these really large customers can manage. I've written about this before in the newsletter, talked about it a little bit in some of the podcasts, but what is called Four Coincident Peak pricing. So really large customers, half of their bill, the whole transmission bill is based on how much they use during four, 15 minute increments in June, July, August, September that are coincident with the peak of the system. So we were talking about 85,000 being the most ever on in that 15 minute increment when we hit that 85,000 in August, that however much you're using as a large user that makes up one fourth year transmission bill or about one eighth of your overall bill for the entire next year. So the bills they're paying right now, are dependent on how much they were using at that time. So you have a microgrid you can reduce your peak, right? So I think we're I think microgrids are going to be one of these kind of mega trends. I think we're going to see them pop up all over the place. And that will help us integrate some of these large loads that are coming. Cause as Jorge suggested in his question to us, if they're reducing their electric consumption, that is then a benefit to everybody else on the grid, reducing their consumption by having their own generation.

So microgrids are going to be a big part of this and look, coming back to that, you know, rising demand question again, even if it's not 60 gigawatts, if it's 20 or 30, we're going to need all the microgrids we can get, we're going to need all the solar, the wind, the batteries, the geothermal, the energy efficiency, the demand flexibility, and probably some gas too, probably, you know, very low capacity factor, peaker kind of plants, we're going to need a whole lot of resources if we get that kind of growth.

Emily Odgers

Yeah. That makes sense. That's really helpful. So another theme that we saw in our questions from listeners was around public engagement and how to encourage it. So from John Howard Jr., he asked us, what are ways to motivate and engage participation of public citizens and efforts to not only pressure government regulators and legislators, but to themselves be more involved in efficiencies, renewable energy, investing and divesting to support a greener future?

Doug Lewin

Yeah. So I love, yeah, I love this question. I mean, look, first of all, you know, let's not, he says, not only, you know, get involved in public policy and let's just, but let's start there. Cause I'm not sure everybody is. Sometimes it's intimidating. Sometimes the language that's used around a public utility commission or a grid operator is quite off putting to people, but I encourage people to get involved. Matter of fact, the legislature during the last session required that ERCOT and PUC both create space for public comment, not only, at least at the PUC, not only at the beginning of the meeting, but at every agenda item. And I encourage folks to use their voice and to use that platform and have Commissioners listen to you.

But to your question, John, John Howard Jr., thank you for giving us that question. The other way I would recommend is to get involved is to really look at where your power is coming from. So if you're in the state of Texas, and I'm assuming you are John, that you're either served by a co-op or muni, municipal utility, so either city-owned utility or cooperative, in which case you can get involved through your city council and mayor, and through the boards and commissions that they appoint, like in Austin the Electric Utility Commission, San Antonio CPS has a Rate Advisory Committee. Or the co-ops you can actually run for your co-op board or meet with your elected representative, whether that's on the co-op board or on the city council, you have a direct connection there.

If you're not in an area of a public utility, which most people in Texas are not, roughly three quarters of the state has investor owned utilities. If you're within ERCOT, you have retail choice. So really look at those retailers that are trying to be more innovative, particularly the ones that don't own coal plants and that are some of the newer companies that are trying to offer more innovative services. So I'll name a few, but there's a lot of them out there. And if you find others, I want to know about them and I'll mention them in future podcasts. But David Energy, Ohm Connect, Octopus, even Tesla has a retailer. Like there's a lot of places you can look. And even if you are with one of sort of the big sort of legacy incumbent retail electric providers, the TXUs or Reliance or those kinds of things, ask them, where is my energy coming from? And do you have any incentives to support smart thermostats or battery energy storage or electric vehicle rates? Ask those questions, be a smart shopper. We'll try to do more on this podcast with that because I think that is absolutely a way to drive change, to use market forces. So that would be my suggestion and appreciate that question.

Emily Odgers

Yeah, and just to piggyback off of that, so thinking of that way to that public citizens, like everyday people can have their voice be heard in these different government entities. Are there suggested resources that you would point people to to better understand what, how the overall structures and governments work in terms of the Texas energy system? Because there are so many acronyms, there's so many different entities, and it can be hard to keep track of. So are there organizations that are doing really great work targeting a certain group or something like that?

Doug Lewin

Well, since the question says public citizens, John's question, he said, participation of public citizens, I should mention Public Citizen. That's a great organization. It's been around in Texas for decades and they get very involved in grid issues. So I would check out Public Citizen.

Solar United Neighbors is a really good one. Again, in certain parts of the state, they're not everywhere in the state of Texas, but they are active in Houston, Dallas, a few other places as well. And they try to help folks that either have solar or want to have solar, um, to figure out a there's sort of a, it's a purchasing co-op. So it drives down the cost of the solar panels, but also they're trying to help customers navigate that competitive retail space and who might give the best, um, solar rate.

The other thing, um, I would recommend is for folks to reach out to the Office of Public Engagement at the Public Utility Commission. This was something that I was, and sometimes we don't, I don't, I'll make this personal. I don't stop and acknowledge when progress is made. And for a long time, I was complaining loudly sometimes that there's not enough public, you know, opportunities for public engagement at the PUC. And to their credit, the legislature did put these requirements for public comment to the PUC and the PUC to its credit proposed to the legislature and the legislature funded an Office for Public Engagement.

So there are now three full-time employees, the Public Utility Commission, those three folks wake up everyday thinking, how can we help make this stuff comprehensible for electric customers in Texas and help them engage with their energy system? And I would encourage folks to take advantage of that, to look at their website, to give a call to that officer and email. It's only three people, so be patient with them. But, you know, that is a way if you're listening to these things and get confused.Those are public servants working for you, so avail yourself of those resources.

Emily Odgers

That's really great, that’s helpful because I do think it's, we all, I think, usually want to get involved on the local level or the state level, but it can be really difficult to do that without having some resources there. And so we'll make sure to include that in the show notes as well so people can find that information easily.

But let's move to a question from Chantelle. Chantelle was asking a pretty similar question to John, but slightly different. And it was really about how folks who work in the energy world, professionals in this industry, how can they engage in the issue advocacy? What are ways that are effective?

Doug Lewin

Yeah. So yeah, thanks for that question, for submitting that question, Chantelle. This is a really important question. And obviously folks that are in the industry, you know, can drive change. I think some of the industry conferences are a great way to do this. I, for a long time, organized a Texas Energy Summit, but there's obviously also events like Gulf Coast Power Association. Um, there's, there's so many, I won't try to name them all, but any way, any place where people are gathering to, you know, unpack some of the issues around the electric grid, that is a great place to bring up and, and Chantelle, you asked specifically in your question about energy efficiency, um, you know, continuing to, that is a topic that often gets forgotten when everybody's talking about adding capacity, adding supply. Um, so, so bringing that up, getting onto steering committees for events like the Energy Summit or the GCPA conferences and, you know, recommending that there be a greater diversity of topics, a greater diversity of thought, diversity of speakers, you know, all of that can help, uh, make a difference.

And that's not like, I know it's not like, it's not a direct line from that to change, but you know, real deep, lasting change takes time and it takes a while for folks to get used to different ideas and to kind of, you know, let them kind of soak in. And so I think that conferences are a great place to do that. And then, you know, internally at whatever company you're at, whether that be an energy generator or, you know, a co-op or retail electric provider or what have you, constantly kind of, you know, trying to bring up what, could we do to make the grid more reliable and affordable to make the customer experience better to give more options to customers? All of the raising those kinds of questions within your own professional context can also make a really big difference.

So those are a few ideas, but I look forward to hearing more folks that listen to this can leave. I hope folks will leave comments with additional ideas, cause I'd love to hear additional ones as well.

Emily Odgers

That's great. So switching gears and focusing a little bit more again on that individual level and consumer choices, we got a question from, I believe it's Arif. Apologies for not pronouncing that right. But Arif was asking, I'd love to hear more about heat pump water heaters. Air conditioning and heating are huge sources of demand, but I'd like to hear more about how much heating of water drives demand. The outlay is so much less and it also keeps my garage cool and dehumidified.

Doug Lewin

Yeah, lots of like extra benefits of switching to heat pumps. This is a really interesting one. So, and Emily, I know you've done some research more to prepare me for this, but I think you've ended up preparing yourself. So I'm gonna turn this back and ask you to drop some of the stats you found that I appreciate. And I'm learning about this.

But let me just say what I'm seeing, Arif, so far is, you know, just from like what people, post on Facebook or Twitter or what have you, we're still pretty early days for heat pump water heaters. And I do encourage people to look into them. You know, I think the vast majority of, you know, the electrification that happens, whether from heat pump water heaters or just from heat pumps for heating and cooling, for space heating and space cooling as opposed to water heating, is going to happen when things break, right? And so, I encourage people though to do the research, to have the conversations, to ask the questions like you're doing and listen to podcasts like this one. And the great podcast we had with Eric Wilson of National Renewable Energy Laboratory, that was about heat pumps for air conditioning, but to be up on this so that when your unit is starting to go and you're feeling like the water's not hot anymore, hopefully you don't have to wait until it breaks, but you know, not many people are gonna decide to spend thousands of dollars on something that isn't broken.

But as it starts to get to that point, you don't want to wait till it's broken to find out. So do the research now. But what I'm seeing so far is people are not yet having great experiences with heat pump water heaters. It's still pretty early days. I hope that people will put in the comments. I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of comments of people telling me that that's wrong and I'm here for it. I want to be told I'm wrong on this. I want this stuff to work, but I just, I want to make sure that people are aware of where we are kind of in the learning curve right? And that there are challenges with this. We don't yet really have a contractor, you know, sort of a labor base that is familiar with these technologies enough to make it kind of a seamless transaction or installation like a sort of, you know, just a regular old, whether it be, you know, electric or gas water heater.

And I just wanna make sure that people don't end up with a really bad experience. So I think if you're going down that road, you wanna have eyes wide open, it's probably gonna be a little bit challenging. Hopefully the contractor base kind of comes up the learning curve very quick on this. And we have this discussion again in six months or 12 months or 18 months, and it's a totally different story and it's very easy. I just don't think we're quite there yet.

That having been said. This is a really big deal. It is a huge area of opportunity to reduce demand, to reduce demand throughout the year, but more importantly, to have another source of flexible demand because you can heat that water when you have an abundance of wind and solar. It's really cheap. If we have, we need to get to more of a time varying rate kind of a system where you can go ahead and have in an automated way. You don't have to, I get this question all the time. I have to sit there and watch power prices. No. It's all automated. You have a system that's connected to the prices on the grid. And when it's really cheap, you heat the water. And when price is high and conditions are scarce and we're nearing outages, you're not heating your water. Um, we're going to see this for a variety of different things. I think we're going to see refrigerator compressors, pool pumps, HVAC systems. Lots of loads can be flexible, but really, um, hot water heaters are a poster child for this. There's no reason to heat your water when grid conditions are scarce. You can heat it anytime in the vast majority of hours out of the year we have an abundance. So we just need to make sure we're heating the water during those times. So Emily, tell us a little bit about what you learned in researching these heat pump water heaters.

Emily Odgers

Yeah, so to directly get to the question around demand, like is this, are water heaters a big contributor to it? From national data, we can see that 12% of residential electric end use is comprised of water heating. And then when you look at Texas, it's challenging to find that specific data for Texas, but I think most, the consensus is generally somewhere around 15 to 20%. I found data from, EIA that was looking at the Southwest region that included Texas with Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana. And there it was around that it was comprising about 17.63%. So it's in that general range, it seems like.

Doug Lewin

And that's a lot, right? I mean, I guess it kind of makes, it seems high to me, but like it kind of makes sense because you think of how much you use for air conditioning, but like there's a lot of days in March and April, dare to dream, maybe May, but like, you know, October, November, where we're just not, we're not doing a lot of space heating or space cooling, but you gotta have hot water 365 days a year. So that's why you end up using a lot more.

Emily Odgers

Yeah. And you use it for so many things. It's not just for that hot shower. It's for washing your hands. It's like if you're not using cold water to wash your clothes, there's so many different aspects to it.

Doug Lewin

Right. Right. Yeah, good point.

Emily Odgers

And so it's definitely a big contributor. I think to me, one of the most exciting things to learn about as I was looking into this was the opportunity for demand flexibility, which is something we talk about a lot at the Texas Energy and Power Newsletter.

But yeah, so we are seeing that there is a really great opportunity, especially because of how the heat pump technology works. It takes longer to heat. This is from an ACEEE report as well as ASAP. I'm not… You can look at the acronyms later. I can't always remember them off the top of my head.

Doug Lewin

Appliance Standards Awareness Project, I think is the ASAP. Yep.

Emily Odgers

Awareness Project and then American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy. Yes? Awesome.

Doug Lewin

You got it. Yep.

Emily Odgers

But this brief talked about one of the things that really helps with water heaters and demand flexibility is that it actually takes longer for the heat pump to heat your water. And so if you can time it so that it's heating that water, you know, 4am, 3am, when, you know, that we're not using that much electricity, when demand is not high, and then it will keep that water hot for a while. So whether you get up for your 6am or 7am shower, you'll be, it'll be ready to go for that hot shower. And that can really help.

The other thing that I think is interesting that I would love to see folks looking into, is around solar hot water heaters, because I think that has a really great potential in Texas. Essentially, it allows potential additional energy savings. If you're able to generate enough solar to heat your water and then there's leftover, there's additional energy savings. And considering that Texas has such great potential for solar, that could be really exciting.

So yeah, there's definitely a lot of potential savings in this area and there's a lot of great opportunities for demand shifting that we can look into.

Doug Lewin

Absolutely. That's great. Should we do one more?

Emily Odgers

One more, I think, is all we have time for. So this is a question from Molly. She asked if you could discuss what the Texas PUC or ERCOT and or the Texas legislature can do to encourage the upgrade of power lines to be able to get more electricity transmitted around ERCOT faster without reconductoring.

Doug Lewin

Or with reconductoring.

Emily Odgers

With rec - sorry, with reconductoring, yes.

Doug Lewin

So reconductoring and, and again, uh, you know, there's a lot of folks out there listening. We've got a very, uh, educated audience. Y'all drop, you know, corrections or reports or whatever into the comments. So we get smarter on this, but my understanding of reconductoring, you're basically taking an existing line, um, replacing it with a higher voltage line. So you, you, again, you, you wouldn't need to necessarily put in a whole nother tower. Sometimes you do depending on how much voltage you're trying to add. But the idea of reconductoring is you can actually just use the same tower put in, you know, instead of a 69 kV, 138 kV or so on and so forth up the chain.

Look, this is in a sneaky sort of way, one of the most important issues on the grid right now. And I mean right now, because we're coming into a summer where, uh, ERCOT has told the PUC they have filed now saying they have four new generic transmission constraints. And again, we talked about how this language can be off-putting. So we're, while we have a lot of experts listening, we're going to always explain this stuff. That basically means a constraint that is generated by ERCOT. They are, they are going to put a constraint on a line because they're worried about that line being overloaded. So if you're worried about a line being overloaded, what can you do? You can upgrade that line.

Right? You can put in a higher voltage. You can do reconductoring. There are, there's a whole class of things that are often put under this umbrella of grid enhancing technologies. Another, in addition to reconductoring, another one would be dynamic line ratings. And what is constantly being said at these hearings by ERCOT is that we already do dynamic line ratings, but when you dive a little deeper, which to its credit, the Commissioners have been doing and asking a lot of good follow-up questions. The utilities do their own dynamic line rating and they're not really rating their lines.

Dynamic line rating means you're changing how much power can flow on them based on the real conditions. Texas really has not deployed yet sensors that are giving good real-time information. We might be able to put a lot more power over those lines instead of generically constraining the transmission line.

Why is this so important? Last year on September 6th, we nearly had outages. Frequency dropped to 59.77. I spent a little bit of time this week looking into the April outages in 2006, because there was a warning earlier in April, you know, just a couple of days ago, I guess, you know, that we might be in some kind of energy emergency. We've had three outages in Texas since 1992. Two were in February: 2011, 2021. One was in April. That April one, when there were rolling outages, frequency didn't even get exactly to the level that we were at on September 6th. It was somewhere around like 59.8 and they had rolling outages.

So that last September 6th, frequency dropped all the way 59.77 was a very significant event. We were very, very close to the edge of having rolling outages. And it was because of a manual constraint, a constraint that was placed by ERCOT onto that line.

It is shocking to me that we aren't moving with much greater speed, or frankly, moving at all to do more reconductoring, dynamic line rating, and a lot of other things I don't understand yet, but that fit underneath that umbrella of grid enhancing technologies, because we have a transmission system that we could be getting a lot more value out of and increasing reliability and lower costs, and we're just not doing it.

This is something the Department of Energy, Jigar Shah, a lot of folks at the Department of Energy are talking about a lot these days and rightfully so. We need to build more transmission. Don't want to leave anybody with the impression that we can just do these things and we'll be fine. We need more transmission and we need to use the transmission assets that we have much better than we're currently using them.

So thanks, Molly, for that question. This will be something, we will, we'll probably do an episode of the Energy Capital Podcast on grid enhancing technologies. If you have recommendations for guests that are great on that topic, I already have a few ideas in my head, but open to recommendations. And we can put some links into the show notes about grid enhancing technologies as well. The Clean Grid Initiative, and there's a lot of groups out there that are putting out really good papers on this. So thanks for the question, Molly.

Emily Odgers

Great. Well, it seems like that is all the time we have today. I think there was maybe one or two questions that we couldn't get to. But definitely want to do another type of episode like this again. So when you have questions, you can always put them in the comments or in the chat at Substack next time that we have this type of mailbag episode. We love hearing from you all. We love having a sense of what people are wondering about and it can also help influence future articles and other podcast episodes and guests.

Doug Lewin

Perfect. Thanks so much, Emily.

Emily Odgers

Yeah, thank you.

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