This podcast episode explores the concept of perception and reality, discussing how different organisms perceive the world based on their fitness payoff. It argues that our perception may not accurately represent the objective reality and highlights the disconnect between perception and the underlying truth. The episode also delves into the fields of physics and computational models, discussing the fundamental nature of spacetime, consciousness, and the limitations of current scientific understanding. The conversation explores concepts such as quark confinement, cognitive impenetrability, the Turing machine, and the relationship between consciousness and mathematics. It also introduces the concepts of Markovian dynamics, qualia, decorated permutations, and the theory of conscious agents. Overall, this episode challenges our understanding of reality and consciousness, emphasizing the need for further exploration and expanding perspectives.