This podcast episode explores the evolution of Ethereum and the shift towards rollups as a scaling solution. It highlights the importance of leadership in decentralized systems, with Vitalik Buterin and Brian Armstrong serving as examples. The creation of Basenet and the focus on infrastructure for global crypto adoption are discussed. The conversation also emphasizes the significance of metrics and goals in evaluating onchain economies and Layer 2 solutions. Achieving decentralization in rollups is crucial for building a successful Ethereum ecosystem. The challenges and potential of rollups in governance systems are addressed, along with the shift towards spinning off the EVM into its own governance. The efforts to scale Base and the future possibilities of onchain development are also explored. Overall, the episode emphasizes the transformative power of onchain technology and its potential to positively impact the world.